Secret recordings provide the ‘final evidence’ that former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells was aware of problems with the Horizon IT system at the same time staff were being prosecuted, a former activist in the field has claimed.
In an audio recording obtained by ITV News, Vennells was apparently present at a meeting in 2013, suggesting she had been made aware of reports that subpostmaster accounts were being accessed remotely. The warnings were made by forensic accountants Ian Henderson and Ron Warmington, Second Sight’s independent investigators.
It comes after recordings previously released by Channel 4 apparently showed that some members of Post Office management knew the Horizon IT system may have been faulty.
On Wednesday, Lord Arbuthnot – a member of the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board and long-time campaigner on the issue – told ITV News they were the “final evidence” showing Vennells had been made aware of the errors with Horizon.
What is in the recordings?
On the tape, Henderson and Warmington are said to have told Post Office executives, including Vennells, that Fujitsu staff had access to live data. They said: “The last thing you want is a response to a spot review that says: there was categorically no access to live data from Bracknell if some bloody whistleblower came along in a week to say: well, actually I worked on the second floor and we routinely did ‘X’.
“If you’re saying they didn’t have access to the Horizon system, but they were actually feeding data to live data… that’s really dangerous territory.”
Separate audio obtained by Channel 4 News and published on Tuesday also suggests Vennells was aware of the Horizon issues.
The recording, from 2013, shows Warmington referring to a “secret operations team” at Fujitsu’s headquarters in Bracknell that could remotely access and alter sub-postmasters’ accounts.
Apparently a lawyer from the Post Office can then be heard saying: “[Paula] knows about the accusation. She knows we’re working on it.
‘She has everything. The way I’ve tried to tell Paula is, as soon as I have proof that there’s a problem, she’ll know about it the next minute.”
The lawyer later adds: “She is aware of the accusation. She knows we are working on it.”
Vennells was CEO of the Post Office between 2012 and 2019, at a time when sub-postmasters were being wrongly prosecuted for theft and fraud.
She told MPs in 2015 that the Post Office said in written evidence to MPs that it was not possible for Horizon to access payments remotely. It was not until the Supreme Court in 2019 that the post office admitted that this was possible.
In 2020 – seven years after the secret tapes were recorded, Vennells wrote to MP Darren Jones, chair of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, to tell him she had “raised this question repeatedly, both internally and at Fujitsu , and always received the same answer: that it was not possible for branch documents to be changed remotely without the knowledge of the sub-postmaster”.
‘Serious consequences’
Commenting on the tapes, Lord Arbuthnot told ITV News they were the “final evidence” showing Vennells had been made aware of the errors with Horizon. He said: “This recording answers that question because Paula Vennells joined in the warnings from Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson that remote access was possible and that it would be very dangerous for her to continue claiming, as she continued to claim, Remote access was not possible.”
He added: “There must be very, very serious retribution for these people who visited such terrible things on the sub-postmasters. The consequences should be very serious indeed. It is not up to me as a politician to determine this; These appear to me to be matters that need to be addressed by the prosecuting authorities and by a judge and jury.”
Commenting on the Channel 4 recording, Liam Byrne, Labor leader of the Commons Business and Trade Committee, said: “We are deeply concerned by the latest revelations about the Post Office and will explore options to punish the leadership who presided over the scandal.
“All options are on the table, including the House of Commons exercising its powers in relation to the contempt of Parliament.
“We must be absolutely certain that we do not jeopardize future legal action or undermine the public inquiry into Sir Wyn Williams. When Parliament returns later this month, I will present the options to my committee for careful consideration.”
Vennells told ITV News that she was “truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart as they were wrongly accused and wrongfully prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system”. Yahoo News has contacted Vennells’ attorneys for comment.
A Fujitsu spokesperson declined to comment on the latest recordings when questioned by Yahoo News UK, pointing to the ongoing public investigation. He added: “The Fujitsu Group views this matter with the utmost seriousness and extends its deepest apologies to the sub-postmasters and their families.”
A Post Office spokesperson declined to comment on the recordings, telling Yahoo News UK: “We remain fully focused on uncovering the truth about what happened and supporting the statutory public inquiry, which is being chaired by a judge with the authority to question witnesses under oath. and is therefore best placed to help achieve this.”
What did Paula Vennells say? Key notes
In a internal email chain written on January 30, 2015Vennells wrote to two Post Office officials:
“Dear both, please help in answering and formulating those answers in preparation for the SC [select committee]:
1) “Is it possible to access the system remotely? We are told it is.” What is the true answer? I hope we know that this is not possible and that we can explain why that is the case. I have to say: no, that is not possible and that we are sure of this because of xxx and that we know this because we have assured the system.
2) “You said this is such an essential system for the post office. What tests do you do and how often? When was the last time?”
Speaking to MPs about the BIS select committee on February 3, 2015Vennells said:
“We are a company that genuinely cares about the people who work for us. If there had been miscarriages of justice, it would have been very important to me and the Post Office that we had exposed them. So far we have no evidence of that. As you know, we are required by the Disclosure Act to disclose anything we come across that could contribute to this. The difference is that we just wanted to know, to give those people a chance to be heard, because they told us they weren’t heard.”
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